Why PMs are suddenly valuable again | Tulsee Doshi (Head of Product, Gemini)

Tulsee Doshi is head of product for Google’s frontier AI models, including Gemini and other multimodal models, such as Nano Banana, Genie, Veo, and Lyria.

We discuss:

1. Why model development is not just engineering, but also like Snape’s potions class

2. Google’s full-stack frontier AI strategy

3. What PMs do inside a frontier AI lab

4. Tulsee’s 60-20-20 framework for balancing what works now and what’s almost working

5. How to write your first eval

6. The rising value of great PMs

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Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-it-actually-takes-to-build-frontier

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Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0

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Highlights: https://lennyspodcast.com/mostreplayedmoments

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Where to find Tulsee Doshi:

• X: https://x.com/tulseedoshi

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tulsee-doshi

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Teaser

(01:08) What people misunderstand about how models are built

(06:28) Google’s strategy in the AI race

(09:57) AI safety, monitoring, and strengthening cyberdefenses

(14:10) Balancing fast launches with great user experiences

(17:02) Why the model itself has a UX

(19:21) Why product managers are becoming more valuable

(21:24) The skills that matter for research PMs

(23:04) How to build your first eval

(24:37) Getting better at judging a model’s vibes

(26:15) Improving skin tone representation with better evals

(28:25) Evaluating the full experience, not just the model

(30:38) From crowdsourced flash teams to agent swarms

(33:13) The 60-20-20 rule for building ahead of model capabilities

(35:46) Keeping your product adaptable as models improve

(36:42) What an AI harness actually is

(37:30) Upskilling PMs through shared skills and workshops

(41:18) Building the habit of asking, “Can AI do this for me?”

(42:38) Google’s opportunity to build a personal AI assistant

(44:10) Burnout, meaningful work, and the pressure to do more

(47:44) Avoiding AI slop

(49:30) How AI is changing the PM role

(51:02) Lightning round and final thoughts

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References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-it-actually-takes-to-build-frontier

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com